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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Oct 17, 2009 5:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Jerry Poll

Most everybody agrees that Jerry was force to be reckoned with in the band and that the world just ain't the same without him. I think at least a small portion of humanity has suffered without Jerry in the fray.

Do you think more of him or less, knowing that his death in many ways was probably avoidable?

I've said it before in more than one thread that if it weren't for the needs of Grateful Dead Inc. there's a possibility Jerry would have had a few more years. To what degree is the success of the band responsible for Jerry's early departure?

Jerry was a genius in many many ways, but he really appeared to go against the grain when it came to a healthy regime. Does it seem unusual that Jerry went the other way from the stereotype of many heads in terms of a healthy, natural lifestyle?

Some of us will point directly to heroin as the downfall of the Grateful Dead and Jerry in particular. The use of junk has kind of been romanticized with Keith Richards and Clapton among a few others. Even with the band's supportive inclinations towards a drug inclusive lifestyle was the use of strong opiates out of step with the overall nature of the band and it's legions?

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Oct 17, 2009 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Earl I dont think any less of him or others for their vices. I can only speak for myself in saying that given the idle time and unlimited funds and people around that would support someone famous would be a true test. Probably most people on here would have done the same thing or worse example; Pig,Jimi,Janis,Elvis,Morrison,Waylon it's all a shame to loose so much talent. Personially I cant speak on herion it'one of the few that I haven't done in the past obviousily it is some bad shit.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Oct 19, 2009 6:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Make whatever claims you like about drugs and art. For me, the creative decline of the Grateful Dead over the last 16-17 years of the band's life can be charted in direct parallel to Jerry's love affair with heroin.

I also agree that the last real chance at an out was when Brent died. Most likely Jerry would been content to just go off and pick with Grisman or play some Jerry Band gigs, but he was the money man for a lot of people and I think it became a terrible burden.

Do I think less of him? I don't know. Do I think he could have made better decisions? Absolutely.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 19, 2009 7:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

It's a fine cocktail we mix for ourselves, just the right amount of this w/ the right amount of that and you have nirvana (not the band), To much of one and what was once fun is now a tedious nightmare.
Jerry even spoke in interveiws about being to high to play, pcychadelics are beautiful but you can't manage that level of drug intensity and still compentently manage your craft,w/ the degree that is expected of a musician, Cocaine your always looking for that next high, Opiates unfortunitly
can give you all the color,the pain killing, you want, the only problem is it anestesizes the person to the point were they can't really see how it is affecting them. Jerry told band members that he liked herion he liked the color it provided him and he was going to continue to use as long as he wanted. They (I believe Phil and Bob ) asked him point blank, The band or the drugs,
and I Qoute Jerry "in that case I'll take the drugs" God I love that guy.
The man had a lot of courage and guts. His stock will always increase because the man had talent to his art, I'm confident that my great-great grandkids will experience the man's music.
My belief is that herion didn't kill jerry. He's only resting, maybe it is some denial on my part, Unfortunatly I got a healthy dose of that junkie mentality myself ( I fight it everyday, but most of the time I'm always reasoning with myself, if this is fun now, think how much more funner (my word, you like?) this would be high?

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Poster: gdoc67 Date: Oct 19, 2009 7:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Heroin did the Old Man in. Remember the 1987-90 period. He was pretty clean and Minasha was on her way out. The scene? Jerry had his scene wherever he went. The other bandmembers did thier best to help him and keep the hard drug element out of the loop ie; firing Scully and others. The other bandmembers were leading reasonably healthy lives in the mid 90's. They were well aware of the demons that started to show up around Jerry again and they likley did their best to thwart the whole problem. However, they were up against the mighty Garcia. He got what he wanted, and he got it his way. It is unreasonable to say that a cleaned up Jerry was a not better artist than when he was getting high. The period above made that point clearly. It is of course, worthwhile to note, that even in the darkest, most despondent periods there were nights that were amazing (Richmond 85' Boston 10/1/94 many more). Junk held Jerry back from realizing his potential. He called it "just a maintenence habit". He finally came to grips with it and made an effort to go Betty Ford, then Serenity Knolls on his own. Deborah Koons may have had a hand in influencing him, but as a wife, she let him get high and was eventually public about not forcibly trying to stop him. The guy went down swinging, he died in rehab because he said "I'm tired of being a junkie". If he said that, then that is a clear testimony that he wanted to be unbridled by the junk he loved and eventually hated so much.
Think of how the whole scene has blossomed since his passing. It could be argued that Grateful Dead was so powerful and all encompassing for improv style music that it actually held back the live music scene. Since his passing,Phil has gone on to do some of his best work and Bobby has a very fine band indeed. But look at all the new stuff that has come out and gained enormous popularity in the last 15 years. There is no doubt that many of the "jam style" bands have their roots in GD. Back when GD did a Summer tour selling out huge stadiums, everyone would go. For many, that was the live music fix for the season. When that went away with Jerry's passing, it opened up the gates for kids to go out and check out other stuff. They did, and scene has flourished with many fine bands that are doing great things. Me, I love the Grateful Dead. I listen to it as much as ever. I'm sitting here in my office looking at all my old posters and Minkin/Cohn photos of Jerry/the band etc. My son's middle name is Garcia. I love all the new stuff and as a fan of live music I go out and see as much as I can. I learned all that from GD, and I'm teaching my kids to be open to the same. I hope someone finds my thoughts worth reading. Cheers.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Oct 19, 2009 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

As a side note, the drug that probably had more to do directly with Garcia's death was a legal drug i.e. His chin smoking unfiltered Camels .

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Oct 19, 2009 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

A major factor of his death which gets overlooked was sleep apnea.


___________________________________________________________

I hope they eventually cure all the major diseases. I'm tired of running 5K.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 5:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Defn related to smoking and obesity...but good point.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

People like to think of Garcia's death as being "drug related", but all these other factors ( and diet also, corn-dogs and Snickers etc .) have maybe much more to do with his death than the drugs .

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Yep--I have always talked about the smoking...jeezz, listen to him hacking thru the interview in 81! He sounded like my dying mother...and the diabetes/wt...then the junk food.

Yep, without drugs it might of been the same...

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 19, 2009 7:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

then your smoking heroin on top of that, no wonder the man had an enlarged heart.

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Poster: pokeyloki Date: Oct 18, 2009 6:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I'm an alcoholic, now sober, and while I was drinking no one could tell me that I was drinking too much. Car wrecks, black outs, hospitals, the legal system, even finally me knowing full well that if I kept it up it would kill me, was enough to get me to stop. It took a miracle for me to get my life back, and to keep it I need a miracle every day.

I better stop quick, afore I start preachin, but not every one gets that chance, or is willing and able to take that miricle when they get it.

When I hear someone saying So and So Rockstar's music sucked after they got sober, I say would you rather they were dead? There are no beautiful corpses.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 17, 2009 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Drugs have always been that huge elephant in the room with grate art and misunderstood artist. Mostly goes unspoken until actions force the discovery or health prob's i.e. Od'ing and croaking that make us examine the indivual and sort of grade them on a curve according how good is the art? and how fu**** up the individual. Bad art bad drugs?
just wanted to comment more about my love of good art and flawwed (really? ) artist. Peace

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 17, 2009 7:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Vw_xCTEWo

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Poster: Death&Mercy Date: Oct 18, 2009 6:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Everything happened for a reason. Change anything in Jerry Garcia's life, and the world is a lesser place. The pain at the end hurt everyone, most of all the man himself. If Jerry had taken the easy, safe, and healthy road, however, there is no guarantee he would have even picked up a guitar in the first place.

I believe Jerry Garcia was meant to grace this planet for 53 years.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 18, 2009 6:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"I believe Jerry Garcia was meant to grace this planet for 53 years"

With all due respect deathmercy, that is exhistential bullshit :)

Its like saying James Dean was meant to act in only three movies and live 24 years. Or JFK was destined to be assassinated at 46.

Jer was a junkie, and he controlled his own destiny...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2009 10:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

If not, why bother?

No offense, D&M, but it really does come down to the value of self determination...without it, we might as well be working in an ant colony.

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Poster: Death&Mercy Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Thanks for the thoughts Tell. We'll disagree on this one.

Jerry got involved in the drug/music scene at an early age. They went hand-in-hand. Would the world be a better place if Jerry Garcia had avoided that scene? The guy who, by the time this is all said and done, will have brought more joy to the human race than just about any soul that has ever lived.

I say well done Jerry. I forgive the flaws. Sure, there was a lot of pain at the end, but greatness involves risk, and risk always involves pain.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

No sweat; and I agree wholeheartedly about accepting the flaws...Hell, I've got more than my share of self destructive behaviors, but put them all together and I suppose it's what makes "me" me...

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 18, 2009 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Not much to do with your jerry poll ,W.Tell ,but i was wondering whythe daily archive digest dead forum was not send today ?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

It was a dastardly plot to keep us apart, ma belle dame sans merci.

:)

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Now now ,what's that you say ,Scotland !I thought the very idea of plots/conspiracies frazzled your nerves into a wreck ,especially if it's me talkingabout it ?So, you go to Kent next summer ? We could conspire to meet there maybe ?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

skies - are you making a date with me? Ma fois, but what would Madame Wordsmith say?

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 18, 2009 2:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

No, Mr Wordsmith ,not a date ,only a way to say we might meet in Kent ,and i'd be glad to meet Mrs Wordsmith too ,for sure !

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 2:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

If you'd like to, écrivez-moi, deadhead français peu cher - and we shall see what the future may bring...

robthewordsmithATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2009 11:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Dunno...I figured it was a French Plot of some sort.

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 18, 2009 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Ha ha ha !Now that was a funny answer I appreciate ,W.Tell !Anyway, last night I was at deadvids for Rat Dog concert from day before and it was a grooving night we had there § Gee that's two all nights parties there in three days being up till 6 am in Frace and i don't hardly see difference between sunrise or sunset ,gulping too many costa rica coffees !

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Poster: user unknown Date: Oct 18, 2009 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"Do you think more of him or less, knowing that his death in many ways was probably avoidable? "

neither more, nor less...death is a fact of life...Jerry did not commit suicide

"To what degree is the success of the band responsible for Jerry's early departure?"

not sure how to answer this one...it is definitely a factor and Jerry seemed much happier when working on hos various side projects...happier maybe, but still under the influence of all the factors...(except the stress???)...that ultimately caused his untimely(???) demise

"Jerry was a genius in many many ways, but he really appeared to go against the grain when it came to a healthy regime. Does it seem unusual that Jerry went the other way from the stereotype of many heads in terms of a healthy, natural lifestyle?"

Jerry was Jerry doing what Jerry wanted to do...the rest of the world be damned...they were personal choices that Jerry made for whatever reason..or lack thereof

"was the use of strong opiates out of step with the overall nature of the band and it's legions? "
NO!
drugs, sex and rock and roll....tune in, turn on, drop out
If it feels good, do it!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"neither more, nor less...death is a fact of life...Jerry did not commit suicide"

he absolutely did! passive suicide is still suicide. if I had kept drinking, KNOWING that it was going to kill me very soon, and did so anyways - that is not suicide?? most assuredly is. suicide is not just a single gunshot to the head.

no excuse for what Jerry did. there would have been no excuse if I died doing what I was doing. Jerry was all about Jerry and I was all about me.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I knew I would get that response. And I agree that Jerry's years of self-destructive behavior could be viewed as "passive suicide". Though I would argue that suicide takes a concious decision, while Jerry suffered from a pronounced lack of decision. Don, in your case, you made the concious decision to quit rather than following the passive non-decision to continue with the destructive behavior. And we're glad you made that decision you old masshole.

BTW, what happened to your socks???Photobucket

This post was modified by user unknown on 2009-10-19 16:40:16

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

thanks brother :)

and please, do not mention my "socks" - i am in a deep depression which was only somewhat alleviated by the whooping my Pats laid on the Fisher and the Titans - holy crap what a thumping!!

(bruins are depressing me too, so please, no mention of them either - lol)

hope all is well with ya Bill! :)

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I share your dark mood re: Bruins. That franchise has been driving me batty for 37 years.

I cannot belive how horrible they look this season (actually, yes I can.) Oh, for the days of Orr and Espo!!!!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

at this point i'd take the days of Neely, Oates, Borque, and Janney


what the hell happened to Kobasew - he was playing like he was labotomized. oh well, good cap clearing move by Chiarelli (as well as a wake up slap to the myriad other offenders on the team)

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Yes, but unless he uses the Kessel draft picks to trade for a HUGE impact player (like Kovalchuk) this team is going absolutely nowhere this season. Maybe part of clearing Kobi's salary is part of a move to accommodate a big chunk of change for a Kovalchuk-type player if they can fit it in under the cap.

Such a dispiriting start after a strong year (minus playoffs) last year.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

i hope so too grendel - forgot all about the Kessel deal - hope you are on to something!!


and yes - quite dispiriting, isnt it

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Very profound , Dire Wolf :you are still you ,here ,and now ,and we sure wouldn't want you gone ! Ouaf,ouaf !

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 2:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Speak for yourself...Flow, McGlone, Arb and Ashes (the "other Ashes"), Rob and I started a "rid the world of Dire" association some years ago...but now we can't find the original Dire and assume this one ("Mr Nice Guy"...gag) is some French Imposter...





[sorry D!]

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"passive suicide is still suicide"

so i'm halfway through my second cup of coffee and i'm wondering if maybe Lucifer himself isn't lined up in the queue at Property Titles to register a lien on my soul in anticipation of me crossing over the line to the dark side of self abuse with a third cup of coffee

if i buy fair trade coffee can i drink all i want knowing that Jesus can veto my fall from grace with the sacrifice exemption clause?

if i grind the beans and boil the water but then forget to drink the third cup am i saved or will my soul still be laid to waste for the sin that was already created in my thoughts and intention?

are doctors, lawyers and rock stars held to a higher standard than say, high voltage electricians, rodeo clowns and asbestos mine workers?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

huh?

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"passive suicide is still suicide"

agreement in principal, i'm not sure of the parameters (what constitutes "passive"?)

disregard my lame attempt at satire

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

oh :)

wasnt sure if you were serious or not - being a coffee drinker, i took offense - lol.

yeah, parameters are tough and can certainly be blurred, but heroin abuse (as alcohol in my case) are pretty much clearly on the preventable parameter perimeter (sorry for the alliteration)

:)

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

it's too late anyways, i'm already past my third cup :)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

ive had 5 today - i'll be knocking on the sarcophagus within moments :)

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"sarcophagus", is that an anatomical term related to the study of bovinity?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

that would be a "cudophagus" - definitely a very holy term ;)

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 20, 2009 1:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Speaking of self abuse

http://www.break.com/index/drunkest-guy-ever-goes-for-more-beer.html#TellAFriendhttp://stats.break.com/invoke.txt

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

huh ?

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Don't forget to put the coffee grounds in your roses soil they love it. What would passive-aggressive suicide be ?

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

almost forgot about the roses (my other vice)

what a grate eulogy...it must have been the roses

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

With apologies to your rose garden and its fertilizer:

"A rose by any other name would still smell like bessie to Dire"

"Caught in the thorns of her sweet embrace...Dire did step lightly betwixt the scent of the flower and the pile of manure..."

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 1:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

holey cow!

seriously, are all of us committing some degree of self-destruction>suicide?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 1:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Hey MS--did you reply twice to this? I got two reply notices, but the other said "thread removed"...? Must've been Tito! Or bessie?

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 20, 2009 2:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

must have been the skies over Quebec..."That sounds like crazy disco fun, no? Ha!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_--adcR-80

This post was modified by midnight sun on 2009-10-20 21:33:59

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 21, 2009 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

This YouTube on Québec is fun , Midnight Sun . I have never been toQuébec myself ,but I thought they speak french there , or dont they anymore ? We ,the real French (from Paris of course) always found funny these accents from elsewhere ,especially québecois !I must add that Québecois ,in spite of their accent are truly fine and friendly people , deadheads from Québec being the most outstanding !

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 21, 2009 2:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

perhaps some background is in order

this is a satire staged by English speaking Canadians pretending to be French speaking Canadians trying to speak English

Quebec voters (the majority of which speak French) typically vote as a block during federal elections...the federal political party that forms power typically gives the province of Quebec more than its fair share of funding knowing that voters within Quebec can EASILY swing the next federal election one way or the other

the rest of Canada (the majority of which speak English and do not typically vote as a block) view Quebec as the "spoiled child", whom has gone as far as to threaten to leave the "family" if they don't get what they want ("separatists")

Quebecois feel that English Canada has run roughshod over their language and cultural rights in the past and have devised concepts such as "distinct society" and "sovereignty association" in an effort to protect French culture


of course, individuals are individuals and satires such as the one i linked are meant to aim at political attitudes

This post was modified by midnight sun on 2009-10-21 21:29:58

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 21, 2009 11:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I have always regretted that our french kings didn't bother better to keep Québec ,MidnightSun .

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 21, 2009 11:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1-XbZL7Lns&;feature=related

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 21, 2009 12:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/165186/?searchterm=canada

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 21, 2009 2:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

that linky no worky in Canada, unless that was your point :)

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 21, 2009 3:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

really? You can't get South Park in Canada?

http://www.southparkstudios.com/

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Oct 21, 2009 3:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Nor Michael Moore's "Canadian Bacon". Strange, but true...

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 21, 2009 3:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

that one works

more of a Simpsons fan myself, my kids (now adults) use to absorb ALL of those shows, i can only handle so much of the insanity

any suggestions?

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 22, 2009 6:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

There are lots of funny clips on southparkstudios.com

Do a search on hippies or Canada or aliens or drugs

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 21, 2009 12:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

That is funny

"our second class citizens"

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Poster: davebigdaddy Date: Oct 18, 2009 5:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

It was the sum of Jerry's experiences that made him what he was/became. Same for each and every one of us. Sure, I think some modification of addictive behaviors may well have spared the man the fate that befell him, but how might his personality and creativity have changed as a result?

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Oct 17, 2009 9:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

as soon as were born. we are all on a one way ticket to death!! thats when time starts going backwards!! we all live to die .jerry lives on in spirit and soul within all of us. i guess it was just his time. living healthy just to die?? its kinda weird

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 18, 2009 11:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Living healthy just to die ,now thats an interesting thought ,wwind ! I still think that as we live ,might as well be healthy while doing it ,it's easier that way ,and most people would rether have that choice ,methinks .

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Oct 18, 2009 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I used to eat natural foods, until I realized most people die of natural causes.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I've posted elsewhere that I think there's at least a possibility that Garcia might still be around today if the Grateful Dead had called a halt when Mydland died. The fact the Garcia was immeasurably happier playing with Grismann and with his own band than he was with the Dead in the nineties screams out at you from just about every recording I've listened to. It wasn't the success of the band that was to blame, but their failure to face up to the fact that artistically their successful days were behind them.

We each of steer whichever path we have to, to find our way through life and some guiding stars shine more brightly for us than others. By all accounts Garcia fell in love with heroin the first time he encountered it, and that pretty much was that. Of course he had other faults too (which of us don't?) smoking with his emphysema, junk foods with the diabetes - he was probably never really going to make old bones. But if he's been happy enough to clean up his act he'd have been a fine old bluegrass jazzer even now.

Always was a pretty fucking fine guitar player, whatever he played.

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 19, 2009 4:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

A day or two late and a few dollars short, but I do want to throw my two cents into this thread:

I had been sober for 8-1/2 years when JG died. I spent about two hours mournfully judging the guy - "oh, if only he could have taken better care of himself!" et cetera.

Then I realized very quickly that I could not judge him. I look at what he accomplished in his amazing lifetime, starting and ending with making millions of people happy, and maybe mourn a little for the great music that might have been - but there is no room for judgement.

I read an interview with one of his doctors some time after his death and he said unequivocally that junk food killed Jerry: the dope and junk made it impossible for him to get his eating under control, but it was sugar and fat that destroyed his heart and killed him. We can all take a lesson from that.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Yeah, just as DudDead and DeadRiver above were mentioning...have to agree that ind of the drugs, he was in a bad way...doubt that he ever exercised (though I think he read that he tried a bike--stationary?--at some pt in the 80s/90s, but it didn't "take"...

Had to have been a big factor--bad diet/lack of exercise/heavy smoking...

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 18, 2009 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Jerry indicates in this interview that he had a change of heart about this issue and very much intended to stick around a bit longer and do so in a fashion that he did not feel poorly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuBKctZ0xE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5af3P8gOOQo&;NR=1


I love the part when he points out that the movable touring group is "only about 5000"

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Oct 18, 2009 4:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

See here how everything Lead up to this day And it's just like any other day That's ever been Sun going up and then The sun going down Shine through my window And my friends they come around Come around, come around..........................................

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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Oct 17, 2009 5:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"Does it seem unusual that Jerry went the other way from the stereotype of many heads in terms of a healthy, natural lifestyle?"

In all my years on tour, I don't think I ever remember or saw anyone whom I thought was living a healthy and natural lifestyle. Just my view.

Jerry was just another human with all his faults. He could have said stop at any point (Drugs and touring). I don't think his choice of dope had anything to do with his followers, nor did he owe them anything.

I don't think any less of him now, but I do feel sorry for him in many ways. At the time I thought he was doing shows because he loved it and had a good time doing so. When you look back after hear some of the facts, a lot of his time was spend feeding the monster they created, and the need to feed is habit.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 17, 2009 6:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

One of the things that stuck with me immediately following Jerry's death in '95 was a comment Weir made that Jerry (paraphrasing here) always had a bit of a "F--- You" attitude for the rest of the world inherent in him whenever people tried to point out that he "should" be doing this or "should not" be doing that.

it's part of the reason he had so many returns to harmful self-behavior over the years and that friends and family had a hard time intervening successfully on his behalf.

But I think this is very much in stride with the overall Grateful Dead ethos, which really was about flouting conventional expectations...whether in regards to rejecting the norms it took to work with producers and make "mainstream records", being part of the true hippie origins of the Haight (don't forget the Dead had had enough of that 'scene' by the time the summer of love in '67 came around--moving out of the Haight just as the whole scene got co-opted by wanna-be's from away and even mainstream advertising who saw a $$$ potential in trying to appeal to a coveted age group)...nothing the Dead--or Jerry by extension--ever did (until arguably "In the Dark") ever was about conforming to an "approved" way of living.

I personally am pleased Garcia lived his all-too-short life just as he did and made the contributions he did musically rather than having "cleaned-up" if that would have meant living a few extra years and turning into a kind of Phil Collins version of his former self.

There's no question that the rigors of the constant touring machine that became the Dead, combined with Garcia's drug intake over so many years, led to an early demise. But Jerry was in that rock and hard place middle ground--he probably would have loved to scale back the "machine", but also loved playing live. I think it's also fair to say he loved getting high, and while he abusd that notion to his detriment, it was a part of who he was and can't be separated from the story of his life.

Would he have still made the great music he did if he had, let's say, given up the hard stuff for good by 1975? Impossible to say. But let's say he did, by--perhaps "finding religion." Would he have stopped touring w/the Dead b/c that scene was inextricably bound up in the drug culture--a temptation his newfound faith would find unacceptable? Maybe. And that would have been a loss for thousands of fans who found bliss at his concerts.

Or put another way--if he had stayed off drugs, would some of the improvisational magic that sometimes did occur at least partially as a result of that activity been compromised in his live performances? (No doubt that same drug intake led also to some of the poorer performances, especially in the 80's, but there is a trade-off.)

The Dead were always about seeking out that magical show even if it meant enduring some less-than-stellar ones in between. Because they toured so much, if you were willing to keep trying chances are you'd find more diamonds than dumps.

If the question comes down to: Did Jerry owe it to us somehow (and of course to his family) to have lived better and longer? My own personal opinion is "no" because the essence of who he was had a lot to do with being a rebel--musically, culturally, perhaps even spiritually in a way no one but he could ever know.

Giving that middle finger to the rest of us, even when it was clear doing so was against his own best interests, was ultimately his way of being, and the fact that he was still able to leave such a vast treasure trove of musical genius behind in his short 54-year life span is a remarkable enough achievement and one I'm certainly Grateful for.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Oct 18, 2009 9:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

thanks for that post!

what it comes down to is a musician's personal life is really none of his audience's beezwax

respect the man's music?
OK then...respect his privacy

This post was modified by midnight sun on 2009-10-19 04:17:43

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Very well said , Midnight Sun !

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Oct 17, 2009 7:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Great points, I never have thought about if a "clean" Jerry would have been a "different" Jerry.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

clean Jerry? Gee name any musician that doesn't suck ass or is barely tolerable after they quit. Not saying they shouldn't just saying the music is never as good or usually good at all after that.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 19, 2009 7:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Isn't Jorma K clean & sober now? He is still playing real good stuff.

Johnny Winter is playing better now than he was 10 years ago - mainly because he got off the pills, etc.

Maybe these are exceptions, but I feel that for the truly talented who love what they do the product will be quality regardless of the soberness factor.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

" Maybe these are exceptions, but I feel that for the truly talented who love what they do the product will be quality regardless of the soberness factor. "

you're right. A great musician will always be quality. Guess I just like a little more dysfunction in my music

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

You may be right - I saw JGB in Summer '83 at Roseland. He was quite obviously on another planet (opiates I'm guessing) and he played a raw and gritty solid show. I clearly remember wondering to myself how he managed to remain standing through the show, much less play rather amazingly!

The H was speaking through Jerry

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

" Isn't Jorma K clean & sober now? He is still playing real good stuff."

yeah but none of it raw or cutting edge. Still played brilliant but they've lost the HOT part of the name imo. Still respectable of course and in no way am I advocating that people with a habit shouldn't get clean

This post was modified by johnnyonthespot on 2009-10-19 16:47:21

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2009 10:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Great points, GC!

Just like my old man: if he hadn't been a mean SOB, intolerant of fools, and so forth, he wouldn't have been the success on any number of levels...you really do have to take the good with the bad, and leave it at that.

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Poster: Death&Mercy Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Very well said Grendel.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 1:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Earl - have your read this piece?

http://www.levity.com/gans/SFFocus.html

It addresses some of the questions you raise.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Oct 18, 2009 2:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Rob, I had read that and between it and reading between the lines in the movie Grateful Dawg is the reason I brought up this poll. As you are aware, I agree with the death of Brent as being the final straw for Garcia and the Grateful Dead. I also believe that Hornsby in his innocent gesture of good faith helped to avert the decision for Garcia to cut back or call it quits.

My view of Garcia has changed a lot over the years. Not one iota about his music, but about him as a person. The Merl Saunders story was the beginning of it. The reality of his addiction as told by his brother Tiff, in knowing the bullshit lines of every junkie that ever roamed the planet. There is much more that makes me think less of the man, and I feel that way because in the end he was not very heroic.

If you recall, Mickey Mantle died right around the same time and Mick had the very same qualities as Jerry regarding peoples love and worship for him. In the end it was cathartic that Mick fessed up and stepped down from the perch we had made him crawl up on. It was devastating for me to watch his life unravel given the way I had idolized him as a kid.

In that unraveling process however there was a kind of very real human redemption that Jerry never got a chance at. It still bothers me because Jerry would have loved the opportunity to come down off that pedestal we put him on. He would have loved to be just a regular guy and IMO that had he hung on for just a little while longer, his relationship with Grisman may have led him to that place of redemption.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 3:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I think we're pretty much in agreement, Earl. There's no question that Hornsby loved Garcia and the Grateful Dead (look at any video - Hornsby looks like a kid who got the key to the toyshop) and if only he'd been signed on for a farewell tour everything would have been different. Phil would have started up the Friends earlier and kept the GD songbook alive. Jerry could have downsized away from the stadiums playing smaller, more intimate gigs with David Grisman, Tony Rice, Peter Rowan... playing Friend of the Devil and Ripple now and then, being happier, healthier... and alive.

Oh well, there's no more sterile pursuit than wondering about what might have been. I think the important thing is to remember that Jerry Garcia was a human being like the rest of us - with human weaknesses and shortcomings - not some mystical being transported into our lowly realm for a while. We noticed him because of the good things he could do, but the good things became a spotlight for the flaws too.

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Poster: vapors Date: Oct 18, 2009 5:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Thank you guys for the well expressed thoughts that have me considering Jerry in a new light. I feel a bit ashamed at taking the music for granted, and never explored this issue that much. I think now I have a better view of where some folks on the forum are coming from, something that I didn’t quite get before. And that David Gans link was great.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Oct 19, 2009 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Another thing to factor is the JGB. By many accounts it was John Kahn that led Jerry down the wrong roads but by Garcia's own admission, if it weren't for the JGB he might not have played in the Grateful dead for as long as he did. It was his escape to do something else. So we get a few more years out of him but unfortunately in a weakened state.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2009 12:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I can't think of too may truely great artists that don't or didn't have self destructive tendencies as well as early childhood tragedy or issues.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 19, 2009 8:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Bruce Springsteen? Not aware of any childhood tragedies....other than having to grow up in NJ.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

let us not forget Peter Gabriel - incredible artist

certainly no drugs, but not entirely sure regarding childhood tragedies.

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

i believe frank zappa and ted nugent didnt ever use.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX1uBcMfBl8

Attachment: image.gif

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Zappa is a rare exception to all rules and Nugent great? Not by ANY standard I can think of

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

American Cattle Association think so...

"Eat Meat!"

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 20, 2009 7:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

re: Peter Gabriel---au contraire, my hairy friend.

Gabriel was an absolute acid fiend in the late 60's/early 70's.

Find some Youtube videos of the "Nursery Cryme" years when he dressed up like a giant ragweed on stage and the like. In fact, "Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" (the band's greatest album) tells the story of an acid trip from soup to (literally) nuts.

He grew up and cleaned up once he left the band in 1975 and he never delved into heroin and stuff like Jerry, but drugs were definitely a part of his lifestyle in the early days.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

i could be wrong - but according to him , he was not

mistaken, i could be

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

"mistaken, i could be"

Thank you Jedi master. Now is that light saber in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

i'll never tell ;)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Tell?!?

You rang?

Or is that just a flash back? (get it? light saber...flash...har...oh jeezz...pathetic).

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

that was a painful one WT - very very painful

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Maybe it was Collins. That would explain Sessudio ;-)

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Oct 20, 2009 7:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I know what I like ----> Carpet Crawlers

You gotta get in to get out !

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Poster: deyzof49 Date: Oct 20, 2009 7:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Always assumed Gabriel was an acidhead. Suppers Ready.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

I said not that many. I should have never have made a blanket statement because it's now come back to haunt me. I should have stated that I personally prefer some level of dysfunction in my music. And I never said you had to do drugs to be good, I just see a pattern of some people's creativity getting boring and becoming over produced.

As for Gabriel - except for a few tunes he bores the crap out of me.Doesn't mean he's not good of course but he does pretty much nothing for me.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

dont get me wrong - i basically agree with you both in music (as well as in literature.) the list of dysfunctional, addicted, pained great artists in poetry (and literature in general) far outweighs those who are physically, mentally, and spiritually sober.

no arguement from me that the experience of pain (of almost any variety) makes phenomenal art.

(and, yeah, Gabriel is definitely an acquired taste and not for everyone)

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Yep. Although you gotta think there were some drugs early on. How else can you explain some of the ridiculous costumes and stories, not to mention that 2 inch part he put in his hair in the early '70s??

One of my favorite concert experiences. Saw him 4 times in the early/mid '80s.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

saw him a couple of times early 80's also - incredible concerts. supposedly he only tried hash once, didnt like it,and never touched any drugs again. just a very creative, artsy soul.

his early solo work is pure poetry and rivals some of the greatest lyricists out there.

(although after the Arquette divorce, he traveled down the Sylvia Plath/Robert Lowell road of depressing autobiographical confessional lyricism which imho weakened his music)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 18, 2009 1:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Bob Dylan?
Paul McCartney?
Richard Thompson?
Tom Petty?
Bela Fleck?
Jerry Douglas?


They all seem pretty well grounded individuals, and pretty talented too in my estimation.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2009 4:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

ok I stand corrected but except for Dylan none of the others are really icons. McCartney - yeah because he was a Beatle but I'd argue that pretty much none of his solo stuff is great.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Richard Thomspon NOT an ICON????

Pray tell - name me a better combo singer/songwriter/guitarist! He is the holy triumvariate incarnate!!!!!! He is Mister 3 in 1 Oil! No one else comes close at doing all 3 on the same level. He is the MASTER. Submit and yield.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgvevtPRqC4

Oh yeah, Jer was good - when Hunter gave him material.... chew on that!!!


This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-10-19 07:35:43

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

So whats the trouble Bluedevil, did you have a bad vacation, or are you just grouchy this morning?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 2:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

I'm not sure I can name another artist that tops him in all three criteria. I'd have to think about it. As you know as much as I WANT to appreciate him I've never been able to get past his voice. Perhaps somday it will hit me and I will finally be able to get what so many people whom I respect get about him. Until then he'll just have to remain one of those artists who gets my respect but I dont enjoy listening to.

Now here's a singer songwrite tha doea a LOT for me. Doesn't have the longevity - yet - of Richard Thompson but I still love.

can't stream this one but it is perfection. My cd burner is dead I've been meaning to send you this

http://www.archive.org/details/dbern1997-07-27.shnf

check out God Said No on this one, one of the most powerful tunes I've ever heard, gives me goosebumps every time

http://www.archive.org/details/dbern2004-10-14.flac16

Here's one from your neck of the woords. Sounds like he might be a little drunk and out of tune but some good tunes played
http://www.archive.org/details/dbern2007-11-27.kreider.skm140.v3.flacf

http://www.archive.org/details/dbern2007-11-28.kreider.skm140.v3.flacf

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

I have to agree with you Johnny--bout RT (using code so Rob and BD don't find out!). The voice leaves me flat...gotta get outta here quick, and remember, I will deny everything! I NEVER video taped any coach doing ANYTHING!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Rob and BD ALWAYS find out.

You'd do well to remember that, Mr Prime Minister.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

BD has been scarce of late, but suppose he'll be sneaking around here soon enough...

Think I mentioned how my musically inclined son turned me on to Fairpt and RT, and I can defn appre that era (think he played me stuff from late 60s?), but the few (only a few) from solo work (? assume it was) from the 70s/80s I think, that he provided, didn't do much for me.

Could easily be the case of too little effort on my part to explore the range of material available--I often do that, making snap judgements and never giving the artist the chance (for me to appreciate them).

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On the Lot of You!!!!

Just thought I'd tweak the subject head - JOTS has had enough time in the limelight. This is getting to be quite the epic thread - had to remind myself that it started off as Earl's Jerry Poll!

Anyway, I'm guilty of making snap judgements myself - I don't seem to have the time, or perhaps I'm not prepared to make the effort, to let new things bed into my consciousness and prefer to stick with the old stuff I know. Now and again something new will make an immediate impression but often that will be because it bears a similarity to something I already like. No doubt its all a part of the loss of mental elasticity that comes with advancing years, as we've been discussing above.

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Poster: deyzof49 Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

I always dug the Fairports and RT, particularly when he was with his wife Linda. But he can be extremely bleak and kinda depressing. Still a stunnuing talent.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

No I don't think he's an Icon. Alright alright. I'll withdrew everything I said and keep it to myself but I don't think I buy into your Hunter analogy because look at anything else he's written. What's he written for anyone other than Jerry that was that good? And it's not just a matter of dates either - last tunes with Jerry were good, stuff with Zero around the same time? That tune he wrote with Los Lobos? It wasn't just Hunter giving it to him with no input imo.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

you are right - Hunter is very hit or miss - tries to be very poetic and profound, but many times fails (as do many poets)

he has written virtually nothing in the past 20 years of any note. I know people may point to Days Between, but imho, it is pure sentimental garbage.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 11:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

I am a big believer in the "early is best" (NOT because of the DEAD)...the old adage that many greats, in many fields, achieve their great accomplishments and decline thereafter...the old "by age 25 and done"...

Don't write in with the exceptions, I know they are legion, but I think in a rough statistical sense, the numbers support the view, for many fields...

And, it works for most of my 60s level bands, etc., so I go for it...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

agreed Mr. Tell

(curiously, classic composers tend to buck this trend. have no idea why when in other discipline, as you stated, the creativity flourishes more in youth)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Yeah, might be more common in scientific fields...some continue to publish, and a few have second and third "breakthrus" but many came up with the bare bones ideas by 25 and spend the rest of their lives rehasing them...

For composers, I always liked Tom Lehrer's quip on his aging and what he'd accomplished: "...it is a sobering thought to realize at my age, Mozart had been DEAD for two yrs..." (when in his early 30s of course).

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Oddly, Jim Croce comes to mind. He died very young(30) and wrote some memorable and moving songs.

At 30, I was just discovering that art is more than just a portion of a longer, funnier word.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

great quote - hadnt heard that one before (very very sobering indeed)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

WT - is this 'burned out by 25' notion anything more than received wisdom? Does it have a real statistically verifiable basis in fact? Has anyone done any peer-reviewed studies into the falling off of academic/artistic ability into the twilight reaches of 30-plus? Is it all just a myth put about by the young to discomfit the (relatively) old? Fifty-plus-year-old (but still enquiring) minds want to know!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Ha! Of course we do!

Seriously, though, having read a great many books on philosophers of science, and by philosophers of science, it is the perc'd wisdom, and for most, it seems true...I could pull out the many examples, but it would be anecdote, as you so clearly indicate...

So, though I might have been talking thru my hat, and cannot produce alluded to peer-reviewed, meta-analyses with appropriate statistical inference, I stand naked before you and declare: I accept, without reservation, the perceived wisdom.

Doubt that gets the job done, eh? Let me look into it...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

OMG!? It HAS been done: here is the abstract showing that 280 individuals surveyed, and the age is early 30s!

"Abstract
The biographies of 280 scientists indicate that the distribution of their age at the time of their greatest scientific contributions in their careers (age–genius curve) is similar to the age distribution of criminals (age–crime curve). The age–genius curves among jazz musicians, painters and authors are also similar to the age–crime curve. Further, marriage has a strong desistance effect on both crime and genius. I argue that this is because both crime and genius stem from mens evolved psychological mechanism which compels them to be highly competitive in early adulthood but ‘‘turns off’’ when they get married and have children. Fluctuating levels of testosterone, which decreases when men get married and have children, can provide the biochemical microfoundation for this psychological mechanism. If crime and genius have the same underlying cause, then it is unlikely that social control theory (or any other theory specific to criminal behavior) can explain why men commit crimes and why they desist.

2002 Elsevier Science (USA). All rights reserved."

I've sent the PDF...

Funny...

This post was modified by William Tell on 2009-10-19 22:26:46

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Master Tell you are a marvel - truly age cannot wither you nor custom stale your infinite variety. I'm very much taken by the link between genius and criminality (who would not rather be Moriarty than Holmes?) and I shall study the file you sent with interest tomorrow. Alas the hour grows late here and milk, cookies and bedtime beckon. (Yeah, right ... not sober enough to cope more like...)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

You are too kind...I sent the PDF in etherspace...yeah, wasn't the criminality stuff bizarre? Who knows, but it at least indicates, as you note, that it is the perc'd wisdom (and that may be all it is for it to have survived the peer reviewers...hmmm, but of course, they would likely have been upset oldfarts now that I think of it...).

Great fun looking into it...

Enjoy those milk and cookies, and see you in the bright AM.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 19, 2009 11:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

As of 2007 the median age for receiving one's first grant from the NIH is 41 years old. They have actually been trying for years to make this better by giving new investigators a break on the payline (some years the NCI funded new investigators at percentile that was over 5 percent worse than us old farts) and now they have even tried to rig the reviewing system so that some new kid does not have his or her grant application reviewed back-to-back with a national academy member. Only thing to keep in mind here as that most investigators are not even in a position to apply for these grants until they are in their mid thirties. I went straight through college, grad school and a 5 year fellowship and was a few months short of my 32nd birthday when i got my first position so the system is rigged such that those genius years are actually spent while one is still in training. This may actually be a good thing as you actually get to do work as opposed to spending all your time trying to figure out how to get funding to do work. For example Carol Greider was a graduate student in Elizabeth Blackburn's lab when she made the discovery that resulted in their sharing (along with another researcher John Szostak) the Nobel Prize in Medicine this year.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

I would only note that geniuses generally are not applying for NIH (nor NSF) grants!

Seriously...I think that the recent developments are an aberration. It is only the last 30 yrs that we developed the "academic-industrial complex" with expectations that ever kid should go to college (I like to think so...but not), that society should support science (I agree of course), etc., etc., etc. So, we have a "system" now to get scientists and faculty, and it is producing WAY too many of them for the jobs (how's the PHD market going? well, actually much better in your end of the pool, right?).

And, it's tough to evaluate geniuses for our time...I really mean if you take the top (?) 100 folks in world impact, what were their ages at the peak--Alexander, Mozart, Darwin, William Tell, etc.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Genius is tough to evaluate in real time. Probably even tougher to self-evaluate but you seem to have handled it with relative ease. Well done.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Hey L--we really are on the same page! Of course, I knew that already, but it is GREAT chatting with you about it all this fine early morning...finally cooling a bit out here, I think I can hear SDH hollering now that he opened one of the windows at the compound...

I recall the 60s in academia in which a PHD = job security...they were hiring up everyone...then, when the 70s came around, and so many folks went into the biological fields, it all changed...job market went to shit...never got better (in the early 80s everyone kept saying, "just hang on, everyone will be retiring soon!" Uh...er...NO! Demographic never panned out as they predicted. Duke, 82: 500 applications for one position; univ Wash, 82: 700 apps...and so on and so forth...

How's your morning look?

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Cooled off here as well. My kids were thrilled that I had to scrape ice off the car to take them to school yesterday and disappointed that there was no frost today. Sadly it appears genius has eluded my family for yet another generation.

I went to grad school in '82, watched funding plummet and heard the same crap about how it would force out the old guard. Applied for my first job in '95/'96 and saw the same type of competition that you speak of. Got a call from a place to congratulate me that i was 5th on their list of over 300. That didn't even get me an interview.

The conversation and 10-18-72 is making for a nice morning though.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Yikes! Ice on the windshield...recall that from the two yrs in Maine. Haven't dealt with that in more than 20 yrs now I am happy to report.

Take care L!

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Poster: deyzof49 Date: Oct 20, 2009 6:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

December 21 1866 Mark Twain wrote in a notebook "Geniuses are people who dash off wierd, wild, incomprehensible poems with astonishing facility,& then go & get booming drunk & and sleep in the gutter...people who have genius do not pay their board, as a general thing."

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 21, 2009 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Your description of a genius is interesting and reminds me that I aslo met worthless bums convinced they too were real genius to cop out on all their responsabilities.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

So what drove this? All mighty dollar of course. Remember for every dollar that goes to fund a scientist an additional fraction of a dollar (something negotiated between the university and the gov't) goes to the university (indirect costs). So universities realized that having research was a way of attracting money as well as notoriety. Some where using projected indirect costs to issue bonds to build new buildings! It had become an academic welfare. Trust me, universities do not pay the salaries of most of the people who do biomedical research. Your tax dollars do that and when the economy crashed last year, some universities, including the one i previously worked for decided that the faculty would have to be accountable for an even greater percentage of their salary because the school couldn't afford it (not the reason i left, that happened after i made my decision). Universities are not the only ones to blame though as researchers realized that being productive was a way to attract more funding so labs got bigger and bigger therefore more graduate students were recruited into the system. I remember giving a talk in place of my former mentor and then sitting around at a lunch with three esteemed scientists and explaining to them that they never worked in a lab with 20 or more people in it but they now all run labs like that and that those 20 people were not all geniuses yet they were going to have to find jobs somewhere.

Now the funding lines are all very competitive. Does this mean we only fund geniuses? Hell no I am living proof of that, however I don't think complete morons are being funded either.

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 21, 2009 6:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

So ,here I cayght you in delirium conceit , again,Guillaume Tell ! You a genius zqual to mozart ,Darwin ,Alexander and such ? At least (for now) you spared us your claim as aqual to Bouddha or Vishnou !I simply cant everget used to this bunch of deadheads here at archive ,on any subject ,in all varieties of bolloney , indeed ,they are each amazing !Humm

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 21, 2009 7:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Can you shoot an apple in half off the top of your young son?

Can you save a child from drowning in raging waters, ice cold?

Can you stand up to tyranny no matter what the personal cost?

Answer these questions three, and I might put you on the short list...

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 21, 2009 7:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

No,no,and yes W.Tell .If I had a son i would never shoot at a apple on his head , no i could not swim well enough to save someone drowning in regaing waters ,but yes i stood up against tyranny without regarding to my safety first ,and did that more than once too ,and can still do so nowadays ,if needed right there and then ,where i happen to be . Never expected rewards for it either.And i dont know the meaning/worth of your list ,i don't win the test then ?Zut !

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

yeesh - no wonder I am now so terribly useless

:)


(atleast I now have scientific backing to explain away my complete and utter level of self de-evaluation - thanks)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

The critical question is, are you a criminal?

Did you receive the check yet for our deal with skies? She is gonna buy the Golden Gate Bridge from our newly founded company...glory be!

We be in the money now, that's for sure!

[see thread above somewhere's...]

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Don't forget your overseas investors...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Did you catch that stuff about the infuence of marriage?

Damn...been married 30 yrs now, and I thought (or at least she tells me so now and again) that SHE was responsible for my very meager attempts at something of worth...she certainly held the clipboard more than a time or two.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

"Fluctuating levels of testosterone, which decreases when men get married and have children, can provide the biochemical microfoundation for this psychological mechanism."

Or, as someone or other (Charles Colson?) put it, "When you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."

Women understand this sentiment all too well.

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Interesting concept ,Scotty , but I thought the way to keep a man was to be a good cook ?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 10:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

that IS how Rob keeps his male harem - differs slightly from his prior theorem that "the way to a man's heart is through is rectum."


;)

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

If I didn't know how nice you can get ,DireWolf ,i wonder where you are at ,being so yukky ,at times !

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 20, 2009 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

sorry 'bout that - sophmoric humor

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Bonjour, skies! I'm already a good cook, so you'll have to try something else!

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 8:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Gee ,you are a good cook ,hé ? Hmm ,i happen to not be much of a cook ,myself ! But wait a minute , Scotty , a english/scottish cook ? No thanks ,you'll have to think of something better for me ,frenchie !

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 20, 2009 10:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Hey skies - I understand your suspicion of cooking from Grand Bretagne, but I'm not just a rosbif! I like trying new things, always use fresh ingredients and I'm really pretty cosmopolitan in my tastes.

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Comme la panse de brebis farçie ? I hope your missis ejoye your cooking then !

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!! and old-age system crash?

INSTALLING A HUSBAND

Dear Tech Support,

Last year I upgraded from Boyfriend 5.0 to Husband 1.0 and noticed a distinct slow down in overall system performance, particularly in the flower and jewelry applications, which operated flawlessly under Boyfriend 5.0.

In addition, Husband 1.0 uninstalled many other valuable programs,such as:

Romance 9.5 and Personal Attention 6.5, and then installed undesirable programs such as:

NBA 5.0, NFL 3.0 and Golf Clubs 4.1.

Also Conversation 8.0 no longer runs, and Housecleaning 2.6 simply crashes the system.

Please note that I have tried running Nagging 5.3 to fix these problems, but to no avail.

What can I do?

Signed,

Desperate.

DEAR DESPERATE,

First, keep in mind, Boyfriend 5.0 is an Entertainment Package, while Husband 1.0 is an operating system.

Please enter command: ithoughtyoulovedme.html and try to download Tears 6.2 and do not forget to install the Guilt 3.0 update.

If that application works as designed, Husband 1.0 should then automatically run the applications Jewelry 2.0 and Flowers 3.5.

However, remember, overuse of the above application can cause Husband
1.0 to default to Grumpy Silence 2.5, Happy Hour 7.0 or Beer 6.1.

Please note that Beer 6.1 is a very bad program that will download the Farting and Snoring Loudly Beta.

Whatever you do, DO NOT under any circumstances install Mother-In-Law 1.0 (it runs a virus in the background that will eventually seize control of all your system resources.).

In addition, please do not attempt to reinstall the Boyfriend 5.0
program. These are unsupported applications and will crash Husband 1.0.

In summary, Husband 1.0 is a great program, but it does have limited memory and cannot learn new applications quickly. You might consider buying additional software to improve memory and performance. We recommend Cooking 3.0 and Hot Lingerie 7.7.

Good Luck!
Tech Support

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 4:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!! and old-age system crash?

Absolutely wonderful and true!

Thank you, Mr Flow!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 19, 2009 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!! and old-age system crash?

Jeezzz, Flow!! Outstanding...hadn't seen it.

Thx.

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Poster: skies Date: Oct 20, 2009 5:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!! and old-age system crash?

High Flow :your crash course on husband and boyfriend is magnifique ! Jolly story to read again ,mathinks !

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

"pure sentimental garbage"

Ouch. I like that song. Watch where you poke!

BTW, the rain just cleared, the sun busted through and a brilliant rainbow stretched across the sky.

It was a "stop and smell the roses" reminder. So I will. So I will.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

"the rain just cleared, the sun busted through and a brilliant rainbow stretched across the sky."

moments that can make a day :)

sorry for the poke - Hunter just got extremely complacent in his writing attempts. Although he always kinda rested his laurels on kitchy phrasings (sp?) and slightly reworded cliche's. Dont get me wrong, I like alot of his early work, but he had many more clunkers than illuminating lyricisms.

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Poster: vapors Date: Oct 19, 2009 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

My friend, I’m having a hard time keeping to myself here – your recent poke at Fire On The Mountain stirred me up (just a little) but hey, to each his own. I have rarely failed to find illumination from his words myself, yet analyzing lyrics can be tricky (and maybe touchy) business, as interpretations are obviously personal things, so I’ll leave it alone. I disagree with you regarding Hunter’s latter works, but I will concede that a huge part of what makes pretty much all his songs great ( to me) is in the delivery (ie:Jerry)

But man, There WERE days …..!


This post was modified by vapors on 2009-10-19 19:59:05

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 1:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

my poke at Fire on the Mountain??? gotta admit i dont remember doing that - but, with my memory, i cannot deny it outright either.



agreed that the delivery helps alot, and can add something esoteric and emotional to otherwise pretty mundane lyrics (not just in Hunter's case)

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Poster: vapors Date: Oct 19, 2009 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

my apologies sir. I can't find it, although I do have the 'in Hunter's defense' notes I began a while back. Will try to keep my typing fingers in better check. peace

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 19, 2009 3:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

lol - no prob my friend - i wouldnt put it past me to have made SOME disparaging comment toward ANY particular song ;)

and dont keep your typing fingers in check- what fun is that?? :)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 19, 2009 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

Excuse me being picky but it was 'truly great artists' you asked for first - not ICONS. I think we can agree there's a difference (Marilyn Monroe - definitely an icon, maybe not a truly great artist). Dylan and McCartney will remain icons until they die, even though their 'truly great' days are behind them. Maybe I can't defend Tom Petty as truly great (I just happen to really like his stuff) but Jerry Douglas and Bela Fleck are world-class musicians by any standards.

I think bluedevil has Richard Thompson's corner pretty much covered.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rob's point needs NO repeating, please

... Jerry Douglas and Bela Fleck are world-class musicians by any standards.

... just add some bold type, and throw in Sammy ...
Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas and Bela Fleck are world-class musicians by any standards.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 19, 2009 10:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A Pox On JOTS!!!!

ok ok! You're right but I also didn't say there were NONE asking for you nitpickers to name every one.

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Oct 18, 2009 5:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Jerry Poll

Pierre Boulez?